Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III Making Al think..... Posted 2-29-2004 01:00 Al, I just got through saying Rome executed Jesus...but I'll adress your comments by way of a philosophical question. Can you try your best to answer this question? Here's the scenario; 1. A man is arrested by the police on suspicion of murder. 2. The family of the murdered victim press charges. 3. In court, the jury finds him guilty as charged. 4. The judge convicts with a death sentence 5. The governor of the state approves of the death penalty 6. After a time in prison, the prison guards walk him down death row and strap him in the electric chair. 7. The executioner throws the switch. 8. Edison electric company sends the electricity through the line...that kills this man. Now here's the question....Who Killed him? A. The police who arrested him? B. The family of the victim who pressed charges? c. The jury who finds him guilty? d. The judge who convicts e. The governor who gives official approval? f. The prison guards who walk him to his death in handcuffs and strap him in the chair? g. The executioner who throws the switch? h. The electric company which sends the deadly current? ......OR...and here's the big one; God who created the electron? WHO is responsible for the death of this man? I mean, WHO caused it? Try to answer this question Al, and I think you'll begin to see my point.

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III I wouldn't do that if I were you. Posted 2-29-2004 01:17 I am trying to ASK you to think- nothing more. You keep tripping over what you espouse as your belief system. You don't even want to start asking me a question like you did- I know I know the answers very well, and it is not what you expect- or would like hearing. Allen PS: Since Cy ISN'T thinking, I'll give the rest of you folks a little hint: the correct answer to the question is "None of the above".

Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III Don't hint....Say Posted 2-29-2004 01:40 Again, why don't you drop with the insults for once Al...it's easier that way. If you say None of the Above, then who or what are you saying is responsible? Hint; There isn't a completely correct answer to this question. It's designed to reveal your ideology and logical thought process. I have to go now, but I'll be back tomorrow to see how you answered.

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Nope... Posted 2-29-2004 01:52 And you are absolutely wrong- because there is. I told you you wouldn't like it. Allen.

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Huh? Posted 2-29-2004 02:20 "Again, why don't you drop with the insults for once Al...it's easier that way." Again: WHAT insults? I said you weren't thinking- and you aren't. I said you are tripping over your belief systems and you are. Those aren't insults- they are observations. Allen

Swedishoo [guest] from Chemtrail and Company III One for John Grisham Posted 2-29-2004 03:35 well, I know this question wasn't for me, but I'll add my 2 cents anyway...lol Okay, I'll say the JURY did it! The jury found him guilty even though you stated that the man was "suspected" of murder. He could have been innocent. The prossecuting lawyer may have been a hotshot hired by a wealthy family. Happens all the time. Putting this into relation to Jesus' death, the governor (Pilot) approves the crucifixion yet washes his hands of it. The judges who want to convict Jesus to death as well as the jury are the Jewish council and mob. Christy

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Thoughts Posted 2-29-2004 11:48 Christy, interesting thoughts. However, I must again point out that the texts in question being used as a reference for all this were written hundreds of years after the events in question took place. The so called Synoptic Gospels didn't even exist prior to the 4th Century AD. According to theologians who have studied remaining copies of the oldest texts- from the style and content of the writing they derive from a single source- despite the claim of their having been written by four different people. They weren't even written in Aramaic- but in Greek- the language of the learned elite at the time, just as Latin is in law and medicine today. They were written to appeal to a Roman audience, and had the Jewish ruling council and the mob wanted Joshua dead- all they had to do was take him out and stone him- end of story. The Romans would have had nothing to do with it. The governor would have dismissed the case for lack of jurisdiction- it was an internal matter for the Jews to deal with, not him. In truth the ONLY known historical fact regarding Pilate is that he was governor of Judea during a period that fit this time frame- that is it. He has gotten a lot of bad press through the years that he really doesn't deserve. Allen

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Addedum to "court case". Posted 2-29-2004 16:38 BTW, in all equity courts in a murder case the victim's family would have nothing at all to do with any charges being filed or pressed. The police investigate the crime and file the charges and the DA then prosecutes them if he feels the evidence warrants it. The jury is the final abritrator of the case- they can convict or toss the case out if they choose to. The judge has no function save to act as a referee. Allen

Swedishoo from Chemtrail and Company III Thoughts Posted 2-29-2004 20:02 As everyone knows, this subject has been discussed by theologians wide and far, and who be for me to know the answers, which I am not claiming, however, my beliefs and studies on this differs from yours Al. When Jesus went to his disciples after his resurrection (forty days), he told them to make account for everything that had happened, record every word that was told them and to spread it to all peoples. The disciples were given gifts from the Father and after Jesus left they did just that. It is said that Matthew had his account first in Aramaic around 4 AD, however it wasn't put into Greek until after Mark and Luke. Mark was the earliest account translated in Greek around 40 AD. There is not much in debate as to the synoptic gospels originally written in Aramaic because Mark clearly gives the Greeks translation within his writtings so they could translate. For example, when Jesus healed the deaf man (Mark 7:33-34) He said to him, `Ephphatha!' that is, `Be opened!' Another: "And they brought Him to the place Golgotha, which is translated, Place of a Skull" (Mark 15:22) There were many example of Mark giving translation. One of the most touching passages: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is translated, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" Concerning Pontius Pilot there are many historical facts about him. It is said that Pilot and 50 of his soliders sought out Jesus when he had risen and when Pilot approached him on a street in Jerusalem, he fell to his knees and worshipped him and become a follower of Christ until Tiberius Caesar killed him. Pilot is known as the most famous Christian Conversion in history. Christy

Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III Meaning Posted 2-29-2004 21:41 Ok, Christy...since Al has ignored my philosophical question there (as I expected he would), I'll talk to you. The point of the question, as some may have discerned, is to provoke conversation and thought, into who is responsible for a given act...the ones who gives the orders, or the ones who execute the act itself.... I guess I could put the question in more simple and direct terms; For example; If a man is condemned to death, who commits the act of killing him, the one who gives the orders, or the one who pulls the lever of the electric chair or the trigger of a gun? My gut feeling and personal belief is that both are equally responsible. It's an interesting question of psychology really. I remember a long time ago during college, hearing about this experiment set up by psychologist where they hooked a person "pretending" to be a test subject up to a chair with menacing looking electrical wires...that lead to a rotary switch...so the degree of fictitious voltage could be administered to the subject in the chair at various degrees. Actually there was no current flowing to the actor in the chair, but people brought into the room (the REAL test subjects) didn't know that . It was found that most people were naturally repulsed at the though of shocking the person in the chair, and when questioned if they would ever do such a thing without cause or reason, they balked and were completely disgusted with the whole idea, of shocking an innocent person. Yet when the scientist doing the study told people to hit the shock button, they seemed willing to perform the command dutifully..a little bit at first, then a little more, and a little more, when they found it was OK with the scientist. On command, some people actually turned the knob of the voltage control all the way to the right where it was clearly marked....."lethal" or something like that....SIMPLY because they were told to do so. People were found to almost instinctively respond to authority like nobody's business! The point is, I think that human psychology tends to allow a person to do things they normally would not do, if it is assumed that someone else is taking responsibility for the act or they are removed a couple steps from the act itself. For all these college students knew, they were administering lethal voltage to this "victim" simply because they were told to do so!!!! Unbelievable!...(but true). Now if the situation is reversed, it was also shown that people had an easier time telling someone else to turn the knob, rather than actually turning it with their own hand....Strange quirk in the way the human mind is wired, I think... Taken to the example of Jesus, I see no logical difference in culpability really, between Pontius Pilate who gives the orders to put an innocent man to death and the soldiers who actually carry out the act. Yet in the movie, Gibson shows a great psychological difference. These soldiers were sadistic and completely consumed by an evil blood lust....as they would have to be. But Pilate, in contrast, is contemplative, reluctant and tortured in the knowing he is condemning an innocent man to severe mutilation level beatings and death. When asked by the Pharisees to crucify Jesus, Pilate essentially says....this is out of my hands. I wash my hands of it....The blood of Jesus is not on my head. Yet it was by Pilate's own orders, that Jesus, the most perfect innocent lamb of God, and savior of human souls, met a death more cruel than most people can imagine. I think Gibson was trying to show that Pilate knew in his heart, that his hands weren't really washed of Jesus' blood just because he proclaimed it so, but it's this psychology that he is removed from the actual act of taking someone's life, and the psychology that the Pharisees are the ones who want him dead, that allows Pilate to give the orders. In truth, Pilate is just as guilty as those who nailed Jesus to the cross. And this psychology applies to the Pharisees as well. By forcing Pilate into a situation where he orders Jesus' death, the Pharisees are just as guilty as if they had pounded the nails themselves, or swung the cat O nine tails. A society that allows the innocent lamb of God to be put to death so brutally...all shares in the same crime....Jesus died for humanity. I think that is a message that was powerfully conveyed so beautifully by the movie, by the story, and verified as true by simple observance of human psychology..... [ This message was edited by: Cyclone on: 2-29-2004 21:38 ]

Swedishoo [guest] from Chemtrail and Company III Passion Posted 2-29-2004 22:26 So Jason, would you say that seeing the movie changed you in any way? Christy

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III History Posted 2-29-2004 23:06 Sorry Cy, I didn't ignore your question in the least. Christy, I mean NO disrespect to your faith in the slightest, but there is precious little documentation to support what you are saying about Pilate- to say nothing of the Gospels. The very fact that the Roman Catholic Church went to great lengths to collect and destroy all existing manuscripts relating to the history of the early years of the First Century A.D. proves there was more going on than most Christians today will ever accept. They also wiped out the Cathars, who were Gnostics and were rapidly becoming the dominant form of Christanity in the Middle Ages because the Church couldn't afford to have any but the "accepted" doctrine taught. These are facts of history. Faith is a wonderful thing- belief divorced from objective reason is another entirely. Allen

Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III Compassion in the Passion Posted 2-29-2004 23:13 It did....and I'm not kidding you. I think the thing that changed was my old paradigm....I seems I used to subconsciously want things from God, almost as if I felt in a selfish and arrogant way, that God owed me something. But I think the transforming element of seeing this movie and Christ depicted as suffering so horribly, was the fact that I now had emotion and meaning connected with the words. A face was put on the concept...and instead of wanting something from Christ, I felt complete compassion for Him, a complete and total desire to be that person helping him with the cross, and fighting off sadistic Roman guards. It's that emotion, that I think changes me the most...I'm now asking what I can give rather than what I need or want to take. I want to be like this person who selflessly gave of himself. Therein lies the transformation. I think. Mel Gibson is a genius at eliciting this emotion in me. If this movie can do to others what it did to me....make a person incredibly sad that people would do this to another human being, let alone such a gentle human being who had nothing to offer but his love...then I predict it will convert millions to followers of Christ...because that's what Christianity is all about...compassion.

Swedishoo [guest] from Chemtrail and Company III Blessed Posted 3-1-2004 01:31 I'm sure this movie will change the hearts of millions of people, not only now, but even later as this movie becomes a classic. I know once it is available on DVD and VHS, I will make sure to purchase it. For me it's been very exciting to see my friends reach out to this movie...and for some, for the first time, really understand it. Now everybody has questions about Christ. I love it! I actually feel tickled. I know the word tickle seems lame compared to the descriptions that others give, but watching other people's reactions this week has elated me. I also feel grateful for this movie to be apart of our lives at this time. I think the timing was perfect and the world needs to be emotionally and spiritually moved. I also feel blessed, blessed to know that God has everything under control and that He lives in me. Even though I have a busy life with lots of friends and family, which I am so thankful for, there have been times where I feel sad and alone. And during those times God has been all I have. I'm not strong enough to live life without God, nor would I want to. Christy

garflorida [guest] from Chemtrail and Company III Finally went to see the movie Posted 3-1-2004 01:49 While it didn't turn me into a religious person, it had an unquestionable effect in so far as that I perceive my own life as being better than I had thought it was. I'm afraid however, the feeling may go away over time. I have a friend who's very depressed due to many recent failed expectations and I suggested he go see this movie. Whether or not one believes in the events following Christ's death, his life is something every person can learn a valuable lesson from. Yes, Jesus was about nothing but love and compassion. As we all know too well, there are many who label themselvesas Christians and constantly quote from the Bible but preach virtually nothing but hate and intolerance. Christy, I'm sorry so many of these people exist because you are a genuine sincere Christian in the way I understand Christianity was meant to be. And it doesn't matter that we didn't agree on the Creation vs. Evolution discussion we had some time ago. The way in which you treated me clearly demonstrated what a truly good person you really are.

Swedishoo from Chemtrail and Company III You're Going to Make Me Cry Posted 3-1-2004 07:53 "Christy, I'm sorry so many of these people exist because you are a genuine sincere Christian in the way I understand Christianity was meant to be. And it doesn't matter that we didn't agree on the Creation vs. Evolution discussion we had some time ago. The way in which you treated me clearly demonstrated what a truly good person you really are." Gar, this is the nicest thing anyone has said to me. You're going to make me cry. The one thing I have humbly learned is that no matter what one believes, regardless if it is opposite from my own, people are people. I/we receive insight from all different sources. It would be so sad to shut other people off just because they don't believe the same way. I have friends from every walk of life and religion, and they all are very special. Thanks for the lovely words, Christy

Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III
Show me da money!	Posted 3-1-2004 21:02
Wow...If this picks up, I wonder if Mel's Passion won't beat out Titanic, as one of the biggest grossing films EVER! I predict that the movie makes over 600 million in 3 months. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&;;id=passionofthechrist.htm I know, counting da money seems somehow inappropriate, given the subject matter, but it is an indication of people voting in the most direct and sincere way possible (with their pocket books). Drudge's guest last night had a great point. This is incredible, and turning Hollywood on it's ear, especially when you consider the fact that this movie opened on a Wednesday in February....about a religious figure and in Aramaic with subtitles to boot! This is already UNPRECEDENTED in history!

Swedishoo from Chemtrail and Company III patterns and The Virgin Mary in Clearwater Posted 3-3-2004 01:27 Yeah, it's funny you should mention that. I noticed there was a wisp looking cloud that looked like it was made by a plane but I think it was able to pass as a cloud okay. You know I was going to start a new thread for this but it fit best here... Lots of strange things have been reported lately since the Passion came out and they were even talking about it on the radio today. Right here in my neck of the woods, we had a horrible thing happen yesterday. In Clearwater there was this glass, 4 or 5 story building, that had the Virgin Mary embedded into the glass - a glass defect, the formed into Mary. Very wild. I'm sure you remember seeing it in your news. Anyway, vandals smashed out the windows using a slingshot and Mary is gone. Here is before: And this is today: Sad. Strangely, they added "clear" glass rather than the reflective glass that was there prior. Many were hoping for her to re-appear, but with clear glass that is highly impossible. Personally, I think it looks odd with the mismatched glass. Another weird thing they were talkling about on the radio was in Rome, Georgia, the Passion movie tickets were printed with 666 on them. I believe most people in the world are good, but there are those who are down right soul-less. Christy

Swedishoo from Chemtrail and Company III Mary Posted 3-3-2004 01:46 Man, that really sucks. I loved that building. I would pass it everyday on the way home from school. It was so beautiful. When it first appeared, the glass people tried to remove it by acid etching it and other means, but nothing took it off. People from all over came to see it. The traffic was unreal. services and prayers were held in the parking lot and the city of Clearwater had to put in an intersection with stop light on the Highway just to get into the parking lot. My brother who claims to be atheist even marveled over her and drove there special to take pictures. I can't believe its gone. It was like God's artwork on display. She glowed. So sad. They are leaving the holes open and not boarding it up because they say it would even be a bigger disgrace. NOW, I'll tell you a miracle...IF Mary's head reappears in the new glass, people of every religion, will be flocking to church. The chances of that happening is...gee...none. Wouldn't that be AWESOME... an ABSOLUTE MIRACLE...if she came back? Hoping for a miracle, Christy

Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III The Human Conditon Posted 3-3-2004 01:53 Sounds like you've been reading Drudge, Christy. I read those stories there as well...You could look at the ticket thing in several ways. For one, you could say it's just coincidence and has no meaning. You COULD interpret to mean that the movie was..erp...less than holy. OR you could say that this is evidence of the dark one...er...the devil, trying to discourage people or cast a taint on something good. I prefer the later interpretation. If you notice, in the movie and in the Bible, the Devil is constantly trying to derail Jesus....throughout his whole life. Satan is always there tempting and taunting wherever Jesus goes. It stands to reason then, if you believe in a devil, that a movie like this might catch his/her/it's attention. It might see something like many thousands of people coming to Christ as a threat, and be taking some action to divert people from being inspired by Christ, through any medium whether through book or movie. I think that's part of the conflict of the human condition...the more we try to do and be good. The more we try to be Christ-like, the more we are tempted to turn from that path by Satan..... That is.....if you believe in the whole Biblical scenario....

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Christ light Posted 3-3-2004 04:45 With all respect to my Christian friends, the Christ light is OLD, it dates from long before the Middle East and 2000 odd years ago- it is older than mankind or this solar system. It is not specific to Christianity or any other religion. It isn't specific to males either. "Mary" (which is derived from "sea") and the manifestations of the "mother goddess" go back as far as human history records. In Egypt she was Isis, in Babylon- Ishtar- there are MANY others. She has names probably beyond counting, just as the male principal of the universe does. This is an ANCIENT process which has been going on since long before Christiany ever existed and will likely continue long past it's ending. Allen

Swedishoo from Chemtrail and Company III The Devil Posted 3-3-2004 08:14 "Sounds like you've been reading Drudge, Christy. I read those stories there as well...You could look at the ticket thing in several ways. For one, you could say it's just coincidence and has no meaning. You COULD interpret to mean that the movie was..erp...less than holy. OR you could say that this is evidence of the dark one...er...the devil, trying to discourage people or cast a taint on something good. I prefer the later interpretation." No I haven't read any Drudge in a long time. This has been on our news and radio. I wouldn't say the 666 on the ticket would be a coincident, but I think people who openly reject God as if they hate him, do things to either go agaist God, or are trying to get God's attention. They say the actor who played Jesus in the movie was struck by lightening on the set, and of course lived.... but they said it was either light, sparks, or smoke, I forget which, came out of his ears and yet he was perfectly fine. Wild. Christy

Cyclone from Chemtrail and Company III I dont care if it rains or freezes,.... Posted 3-3-2004 08:47 Yeah, I saw him interviewed by Jay Leno, and he's NOTHING like the Jesus character he plays! It's amazing, without the beard and the tan, he doesn't have the swarthy ethnic look that he had in the movie. Had I not seen him interviewed on Leno, I wouldn't even recognize him in a crowd. He looks like a clean cut kid from white bread America. His personality is even somewhat shy and reserved....This guy DEFINATELY deserves the academy award for acting! He mentioned the lightning thing, but I wish he would have gone into that a bit more deeply. Not everyone gets stuck by lightning and lives to tell about it, but he just nonchalantly mentioned it like it was no big deal. He said the scene you see in the movie where the sky welled up with clouds really happened unexpectedly like that when he was up on the cross, and he did get hit by lightning. He actually had the presence of mind to make a joke after getting hit, saying..."What's the matter God, didn't you like that take????" I'd like to hear more about that....sounds like a miraculous event to me! Also, the pain you saw was somewhat real. He was suffering from hypothermia, one of the "Romans" actually knocked the wind out of him in the whipping scene...and the thorns were digging into his head, having to be tight enough to stay on, and giving him a head ache. Now that's method acting of the strictest form! Apparently there's a Mel Gibson interview on the AMC channel around 11:00 on Sun. I'll have to see that. For some reason, although I've really never been all that interested in religion or the Bible before (having been a bit turned off of Catholicism at the Catholic school, Jesuit, that I attended)... lately it just seems it's all I'm interested in. It's bizarre. If the affect of the movie is nothing more than this on people....I think there must be a great deal of good in it. I'll admit, it's made me think about a great many things in terms of, asking myself..."how would Jesus handle this situation???"

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Astropaphobia (fear of lightning) Posted 3-3-2004 14:02 There is a US Forest Ranger who has been hit by lightning no less than 17 times (at last count) he was featured on a TV show segement a few years ago. In that interview, the last time he got zinged was when he was out doing a patrol run and saw a thunderstorm approaching and figured he'd better get back to the Ranger cabin and indoors ASAP. He drove back to the station- no problem. Just as he was stepping out of his Jeep, he got zapped again and it knocked the gazookis out of him. Dwight David Eisenhower was also whacked when he was a teenager. As to the 666 bit, numerology is replete with meanings. If you understand the "bar code" now found on most everything you buy- the first, middle, and last digits when translated are 6-6-6... Allen

JAK from Chemtrail and Company III Movie pain Posted 3-3-2004 14:10 "Also, the pain you saw was somewhat real. He was suffering from hypothermia, one of the "Romans" actually knocked the wind out of him in the whipping scene...and the thorns were digging into his head, having to be tight enough to stay on, and giving him a head ache. Now that's method acting of the strictest form!" The actor that played "Strider" in The Lord of the Rings did this too. If you watch the scene where they are tracking the Orcs that took the two Hobbits captive, and they come upon the burned out pile of bodies and armor of the slaughtered Orcs and he kicks the helmet in rage. His pain is quite real- he broke his toe doing it and the effect looked so good in the take that they left the scene in the final cut. Allen